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IOM Interview with Michael Foster

Organizational Mindfulness Podcast 

About Mike Foster

Michael Foster is the founder and Chair of the non-profit Institute for Organizational Mindfulness (IOM), and an accomplished entrepreneur and executive. Mike has founded, grown and harvested four companies that have been acquired into the Fortune 100 and 500 - and continues as the principal shareholder and a director of his fifth, the Human Capital Institute (HCI). 


Mike has been a student of Eastern science and philosophy since 1968, and an active meditator in various disciplines since. As a career-long CEO in start-up organizations, he has experienced the transformative power of mindfulness, and believes that scientific confirmation of its impact on physical, mental and emotional fitness signals an inflection point in how we can teach our children, train our leaders and help our workers flourish.

The Transcript 

Brett: Hello, and welcome to the Organizational Mindfulness Podcast, where in every episode, we interview leading authors and thought leaders in the fields of mindfulness, neuroscience, and organizational change, you'll hear the latest insights, discoveries and guidance from world-class experts. As we explore recent trends, new ideas and important work related to the adoption of mindfulness in organizations. This podcast is presented by the ‘Institute for Organizational Mindfulness’. In this very first edition of the Organizational Mindfulness Podcast, I'm going to be talking with Michael Foster, the founder of the Institute for Organizational Mindfulness, about what we're up to here, and how we get started. And our vision for this podcast, which is really amazing and fun, and we're having a great time. So Michael, welcome to the podcast, which we are both co-creating.


Michael: Yes, thank you, Brett. I really appreciate that. And I just want to thank you for raising your hand and becoming the master of ceremonies, and the host for this new series, we really appreciate it. You know, you're an accomplished guy. And we really, really are looking forward to your conversations with, you know, all the great folks that we've lined up. So thank you very much. We appreciate that. You know, I'm not sure if you actually asked me the question-


Brett: Let me ask the question, what are you doing with the Institute for organizational mindfulness? It's like, you know when I encountered you, I was on the web, and I'm going, I'm looking at LinkedIn, and I'm going, “look at this, these guys are like IOM, they're like, Aetna and Ford” I was looking at the webcast. And I thought, oh, that they've got these communities and various cities and stuff. And I said, “I need to find out what these guys are up to”. And I actually reached out to him and said, “Hey, let's get an organization started in Seattle”. And we started talking about that. And then this thing, segwayed into a podcast. And he said, “You know what, we'd like to do a podcast”. And that's how we got started with that. But, you know, I didn't at that time, I don't think I fully appreciate the vision and scope of what you're up to here. So fill us in a little bit on how you even got started, and your vision.


Michael: Okay, so the thumbnail is that the Institute for Organizational Mindfulness is a relatively new non-profit association. We have about 4200-4300 members today. Most of those members are human capital and operating leaders inside of business organizations. We have a number of members that are coming from health care, a number that are actually coming from education, universities, etc, and are essentially academics, and a number that are coming from God, the government or military branches and government agencies.

So what we all share is a determination to bring science-based performance-focused mindfulness into our organizations. We share the knowledge, if you will, of the new science that has emerged over the past two decades. And it very clearly offers a real framework for secular, completely secular interpretations of mindfulness concepts and mindfulness practices. And so, you know, mindfulness is at this place in its evolution, if you will, modern mindfulness, if you will, where it's been in the public realm now for several decades. And everyone sort of has a sense that mindfulness is a good thing, that mindfulness helps, that mindfulness is applicable to, for example, stress reduction, that it's a good mental exercise set to sort of add on to your daily regimen of, you know, personal development. But what's really not known yet is the extent to which two things... one is what mindfulness can actually do to help develop mental and emotional skills that go beyond just stress relief. They go beyond, you know, sort of simply even health and well-being, and really go to strengthening and developing and creating competencies and capabilities that are performance-based and really important for organizations. So organizations have been bringing mindfulness in as kind of a stress relief employee benefit. And one of the initiatives that we think you know is central, you know, to our mission is to raise awareness in the corporate ranks.

If you will, that mindfulness actually does a lot more than that. Okay? That it really is a process that strengthens awareness, attention control, emotional regulation, and that those attributes can be applied inside an organization to develop stronger business competencies, to develop more effective leaders, to develop a workforce that is more motivated, more engaged, more interested and curious about what they're doing, and it offers emotional intelligence benefits as well, so that people are able to collaborate more fully, it supports inclusion, you know, these are kind of sweeping statements. But if we come back to science, we see that, you know, this is a very, very legitimate logic path, right? So that means that mindfulness is a really big deal. You know, for the last forever, companies have been trying to help their employees, their leaders and employees feel great about themselves, or, you know, to feel fulfilled in their job or to be engaged in the company itself. And they've always wanted to help their people with their cognitive capabilities and their emotional capabilities.


But many of the tools that have been available for personal development have been kind of locked up in the, you know, spiritual, religious, family, dinner tables, social neighborhood, you know, batch of learning. And so, companies have always assumed that that's where we learn these kinds of skills, and they want to hire those skills, but in order to strengthen them, or train them, you know, corporations have never had the capability to actually sort of use those techniques or teach those kind of mental and emotional skills they've been, you know, really hands off, as they should be, right?

Companies and public education, you know, should not be teaching any particular belief system, right? Whether it's a new age, or Buddhism, or Catholicism or any belief system. But for the past 40 years, science, neuroscience, psychology, biology, have all taken a deep dive into the question of, you know, can the mind actually change the brain? Can it change the structure and function of the brain and the body? And the consensus very strongly now is across the science community and across all these different disciplines? Yes, it certainly can. So there's great evidence that the way we think, how we structure our thoughts, how we respond to the thoughts and emotions that appear in the brain, and then ultimately in consciousness, can actually create real change in the brain and actually real change in the body. And this is a realization that creates a massive inflection point in how we're able to now teach our people to how we're now able to not just train business skills, not just train technical skills, not just train, sales, or leadership skills, but actually help train mental and emotional skills. And these are mental and emotional skills that help our people become better humans. Okay?

These are mental and emotional skills that help them become better fathers and brothers and mothers and children and friends and coworkers. These are outcomes that help each individual be able to really have a different relationship with their stress and their anxiety and their worries and all of these mental models that sort of exist in our nonconscious. This is incredibly valuable for the individual person. And the theory of human capital is that that person will then bring that capital and they have the right to choose what and where they contribute that human capital, but you know, the theory is that they will bring that to work the next day, and that they will contribute that renewed sense of engagement, motivation, the renewed sense of happiness, the renewed sense of you know, sort of satisfaction with their life. And, you know, for every individual that doesn't kick the cat on the way to work every morning, right, or doesn't get into a fight with their spouse or their kids, or doesn't, you know, that that person is coming into the organization. And, and taking just one more little piece of toxicity out of the environment.

So this is an incredibly positive investment, if you will, that companies can make that we've never been able to make before, you know, we've never been able to present and still, to a great degree, aren't able to present these kinds of teachings. Without the worldview and the belief system that we have to ask people to buy into, in order to, you know, in order to realize value, what science has done, is one, it's literally opened the door to our being able to discuss these capabilities as proven science.

There's also enough research done now, I mean, literally, there's six to 8000 studies that have been done in the past two decades on meditation and mindfulness. And its impact on health and its impact on cognitive performance, its impact on emotional intelligence. And now for the last decade, there's another big group of research reports that have been done, on how it fits into the organization, how it fits into organizational development, leadership, development, etc. And so we now have a body of information that allows us to build an entire curriculum around mindfulness through an all science- not just science-based, but an all science lens so that we can look at the science of mindfulness. And you know, this is an incredible step forward.


And we just simply don't know it yet, you know, 98% of the, of the sort of corporate leaders out there in the world, again, have a positive view overall, they have a sense that there's something good about mindfulness, they probably have the knowledge that it's good for stress relief, and so it'd be really good to give their people an employee benefit that helps them learn mindfulness, but they don't yet understand or know. And this is our mission at IOM, is to help them gain the awareness that mindfulness really is a way to transform the organization, one individual, at a time. And that's really the only transformational lever that we have, we've all made believe that, that our people are going to become, excuse me happier and more engaged, if we give them more employee benefits, or if we put a pool table, employee lounge or put a restaurant on the campus.


Brett: Warehouse floor. 


Michael: Yeah, right, a meditation room or a Nap Room and, you know, these things are simply not going to move the needle. And you know, we can see that over two decades of, of experimenting with them, the only, the only thing that's going to move the needle is when each individual in an organization is bringing a better version of that individual into the organization and the ability now to give them those tools to help their own, you know, their own lives, their own families, and then naturally bring that back into the organization is a really new and really, really exciting prospect. So that's what IOM is about. IOM is about being able to tell that story, being able to raise awareness, you know, at the corporate level, but also build the structures across that chasm from where we are today that allow that to become a reality. So, you know, in order to really bring mindfulness into an organization and have it literally proliferate across 1000s and 1000s of desktops, there must be a set of standards and practices that everyone that teaches mindfulness inside an organization adheres to. Right. And the simplest one is, hey, we only teach science. When we go to an organization, we can teach whatever we want to teach in our own studio, or in our own classes.

But when we go inside an organization, there has to be a set of rules around, you know, where you draw that bright line, between belief system, and science, you know, another structure is that, that there should be a curriculum, again, that has some certification levels in it. So that mindfulness teachers and other coaches, who are teaching mindfulness have an ability to certify their knowledge and to certify what they are teaching. And then a third structure, and this is not the only, you know, set of structures. But a third structure is some reliable way to measure the outcomes so that we do understand what is happening on the other side of the training, right? What are the outcomes? And then how do you connect those outcomes to actual business results, to actual financial results.

So IOM, the Institute for Organizational Mindfulness has as a mission, first is raising of awareness, you know, second, the building of the structures that allow mindfulness to actually come in and hopefully transform organizations. And then the third big component of our mission is that we need to help all of the teachers and all of the coaches and all of the service providers that are bringing you know, this knowledge into the organization and make sure that they are upskilled, so that they're not only expert, if you will, in teaching mindfulness practices, and mindfulness concepts, but they're expert in teaching those in a 100% science framework, right. So understanding the science is critical, and also upskilling them to understand how to apply that science to applications, you know, inside the company. So in other words, how to apply mindfulness to create personal performance, and how to convert that personal performance into organizational performance. And so these are our teachers and coaches that not only know how to teach mindfulness, but they know how to integrate that mindfulness into a workplace.


They know how to turn that into programs that have specific outcomes of their own, in creating more effective leaders, in creating more effective client facing sales and customer service people, in creating more effective software engineers who might be building the product, etc. So this is a long term enterprise. But this is the point in the marketplace, if you will, where we can actually take these new paradigms, and bring them in and begin to act on them.


Brett: And so you're... this is such a big vision. And you think the time is now. You think we're at an inflection point, right now, with all of this?


Michael: I think there's two reasons we're at this inflection point. One is, that, again, there's been sufficient science that we can literally, you know, very confidently apply that to building an all science curriculum. This is a science class. Now, it's still being taught as a belief system, but it can literally, everything that matters, you know everything that is not, you know, theological doctrine and dogma and, or a spiritual belief or all of the, you know, the body of, of information that relates, you know, to personal performance and organizational performance is science, proven now, so, that's a huge inflection point. The other contributor if you will, to this being the moment when everything changes, is that we're at a tipping point, because of the last 18 months, two years of pandemic distress and anxiety and, and worry and concern. But it's not the pandemic that's creating the inflection point. It is literally 40 years of year over year over year increase in a series of what we think of as 21st-century suffering.

You know these are, these are ailments, if you will, or maladies if you will, another way to look at him is these are intractable human capital challenges that have grown up and that we've, we have not been able to figure out a solution to. So this idea of information overload didn't exist 30 years ago, today, it's creating massive amounts of chronic stress, digital distraction, the idea that we're, you know, that we're addicted effectively to opening up tabs and to checking our text and, you know, and that's has a huge impact on our, on our productivity, and it also creates massive amounts of stress. The idea of, you know, the rise in anxiety disorder, I guess it's over 20% of America. Americans today are on some kind of an anxiety medication, another 30% are estimated to actually qualify for that medication, but they're simply not diagnosed. 50% of the population is experiencing anxiety, you know, over the baseline, you know, that's a crisis, we have a crisis, we have a social and political crisis of conflict, that really has bubbled to the top in the last 18 months.


But it's been with us again, for decades. And it's been, you know, it's been scaling year over year, there's more harassment, there's more bullying, there's more, you know, microaggression, you know, these are human capital challenges that are getting worse every year. And so these are what has bubbled all over the, you know, this is really what's contributed to the tipping point. Sure, the pandemic is a perfect storm, the pandemic, you know, you know, it is a global health crisis and economic crisis, job insecurity, fear for the health and wellness of your parents and your children and your, your loved ones, and a complete massive disruption in your work. And, having to come home and very possibly have one or both spouses being laid off, at least temporarily, I mean, this is a big deal. And then the kids come home from school, and now you're in, now you're sort of also in the business of homeschooling virtually, and dealing with them all day long, as you're trying to deal with these other massive, you know, sort of disruptions. And now we're entering an entirely new phase of that.


Now, we're, you know, being diagnosed with reentry, anxiety...  and seriously 82% of Americans just in March, I believe this study was done. 82% of Americans say ‘I'm as stressed or more stressed today than I was last year’, at the very height of the COVID crisis and of the COVID fears. So, you know, our anxiety around going back to work, you know, some people don't want to wear a mask, other people feel like everybody needs to wear a mask, you know, these are societal conflicts that are mirrored in our workplace. And people are anxious about going to that workplace, they may be anxious about being infected, they may be anxious about sending their kids to school, or not sending their kids to a, you know, there's a tremendous, perfect storm that this pandemic, you know, has generated.


But really, it's putting us over the top of decades of increasing stress, increasing unhappiness, increasing frustration, increasing anger, and in the workplace. Five years ago, the National Institutes of Health said that the primary source of premature deaths is actually chronic stress. And that the primary source of chronic stress is at work, whether you're working in an office or you're working from home. You know, it's a direct line. You know, from the workplace to chronic stress, to all kinds of you know, ailments and claims of looting, premature death. So this is a big deal. So those two, you know, sort of the problem is coming in. And actually, all of a sudden companies are having to deal with it. Right? Having to deal with the ‘Great Resignation’, you know, historic, there's never in history, has there ever been a time when so many people have simply quit goodbye. Right? And at the same time, you know, new numbers have come out on employee engagement. And, you know, the new numbers are that only 15% of people in the organizations remain engaged with their job. Again, that's never been that, that dire, you know, it's never been an emergency like that. So that on one side is an enormous problem that, you know, organizations have to deal with.


And, on the other side of the tipping point, or on the other side of the inflection point, is the fact that we have a solution to it's not a perfect solution. It's not an inoculation, you don't wave a wand, and it happens all at once. But we have a way to teach people about their brain, about how their brain works, about how their brain reacts and responds, you know, to all of this confusion and chaos in the atmosphere in the ether, and give them really a set of emotional tools and mental tools to be able to change those mechanics. We've never had that before. So that's a huge factor. And these problems are boiling over, they're meeting in the middle. And that's what's producing the inflection point. 

Brett: Yeah, makes sense. It's like such a big vision. And the way to scale this is through the organizational framework as well, because, you know, if you're going to do this, what you can't do this one at a time at a webinar, it's gonna have to be so the organization's need it, the science is in and the people need it. So like, what's the problem? 


Michael: Right? It's a no brainer, if you understand, you know, where we are, you know, and again, it's a big challenge, because a very small percentage of the population, even the people that are read in and understand what mindfulness is, and what it can do, you know, haven't necessarily made this leap to the to, you know, how can I look at this through a lens and communicate it through a lens that the corporation can understand. So, you know, even in our own sort of community of, you know, mindfulness, if you will, teachers, or experts, or thought leaders or whatever it is a very small number who have actually seen this kind of big picture. And almost nobody in the organization understands it yet. Again, because this is not the way that we look at mindfulness today.

This is not the way that the media, you know, has ever portrayed mindfulness because they haven't been ready either, right. And it's not the way that our, you know, our base of mindfulness teachers and thinkers and gurus, it's not the way they perceive, you know, reality today, you know, and because for 40 years, they've been learning mindfulness through a specific framework. And so for them that, you know, that works. And it does work, it's great for them, you know, but it's not going to change, or transform the organization, right until the organization understands what it is they want. In this new world, the organization is the client. So typically if I'm a mindfulness teacher my, you know, my client is a person. And so my value proposition to that person is that, you know, this is a set of mental and emotional skills that will help you, you know, deal with coping with stress and anxiety and confusion.

It'll help you develop the traits, the emotional traits that can make you more human and more kind and more courteous, and you will be a happier, more fulfilled individual. And that is the promise that we offer when we look at an organization, that we're promising to every individual, but our client is the organization. So we have to be able to communicate with your organization in a way that that they can clearly see the scientific outcomes of this kind of training that they can see that there is no you know, sort of Political pushback, social pushback, you know, religious pushback, that it really, you know, fits the criteria of, of being, you know, all science. And that, if they make this investment, it's going to work for the individual. Now, it's not going to work for all of those individuals, it's going to work great for a small population of individuals who see the value, who model, you know, the seven out of 10 CEOs of the largest companies in the world, that meditate every day, and who see this as a true, you know, personal development and powerful personal development tool. And, and they're not going to reach, you know, the 10% or 15%, it's a, it's a Pareto curve.


They're not going to reach the 10% on the other side, but everyone in the middle will get something out of learning about how their brain works, and learning how they can, you know, how they can remove the panic and the fear and the anxiety and the worry, that is so uncomfortable, and so unpleasant, and makes them so unhappy, you know, they're all motivated, to be happier. We all are, that's our, you know, that's what we want, right? So, the organizational value proposition is that if you can provide this kind of training, literally to everyone, okay? That a large percentage of the people in your organization are likely to be coming to work, right, and behaving in a different way, some in a slightly different way, some in a very different way. But every single action, that's different from a negative action that might have happened before this training is, again, a piece of toxicity that comes out of the system.

So if, if one manager, who just doesn't believe in this stuff at all, you know, it's like, “I don't want anything to do with it” sits in the class, learns about, you know, the fact that the brain is essentially 2 million years old, and without our knowing it, it's creating, you know, stress and creating problems for us. So never doesn't meditation, you know, never right. But away from that training takes just that one concept that, you know what, I don't have to get mad, because my brain is getting mad. Right? I actually have control over that space between the stimuli that unconsciously my brain has always gotten angry about, you know, I have the ability to detach, just enough to not get mad, right. So let's say that manager goes into his meeting tomorrow morning with his nine people on his team, and somebody says something or looks in some way or something happened, that would normally send them into a tirade,


Brett: I have been in that meeting.


Michael: But they don't, let's say they don't, one time. That saves nine people from having a crappy day. That's that, that is the difference between any of those other nine people creating, you know, real hardship and real, you know, unhappiness. And it's the difference between those nine people being able to go from that meeting and concentrate on something fully, or those nine people being upset. And leaving that meeting with a, you know, with the confusion of being upset, this is not insignificant. Right. And if that happens with not just one manager, but 10 managers today, you're beginning to create a completely different, less toxic, non toxic environment in your company, right, and putting a pool table in the faculty lounge or in the, you know, in the break room does not accomplish that. Right, and telling everybody that they need to be happy, does not accomplish that. What accomplishes that is one individual, you know, who is able now to control their emotions to the extent that they don't go nuclear in a, you know, in a conference room where they didn't even think about it before. You know, it's just so-

Brett: It's huge. It's massive. So what then is the vision for the podcast in relationship?


Michael: Well, we have a whole series of activities underway, if you will, at IOM that are aimed at this kind of, you know, raising consciousness that there is something different in town that, that we can look at this set of tools and an entirely new way that, you know, the teachers can actually take advanced, learn advanced techniques that can help them, not just teach mindfulness but teach mindfulness effectively inside organizations. We have a series of blogs or a series of webcasts, for example, where we are on a monthly basis, we're interviewing the experts now, who were early adopters, who started these initial programs inside these great companies.


So we've interviewed, you know, the people that started the program at Microsoft and Intel, and Google and SAP and, you know, on and on… Morgan Stanley, and, and etc. And the notion there is so that, so that our members can have access to people that have actually done it, you know, they've, they've kind of been able to, to upsell, the idea that this is an important process, they've been able to actually build an internal course of some kind. And they're actually leading, you know, meditations and doing other other activities that support, you know, a mindful workforce or a mindful workplace. Where we saw the opportunity here for a podcast is that we have many, many, many, many, many, many people. In fact, our members represent people that really don't know anything about mindfulness, they've heard of it, they know a little bit about it, but they're not in the inner circle, in the bubble, of people that are already kind of, you know, they're, they're the choir, right? Like, there's a lot, right, there's a lot of people that, ‘Oh, I get it, I want it, you know, I'm great with, you know, the Buddhist teachings. I'm great with that, that's what I want’. And that's a huge population of people.

Don't get me wrong. But there's a much more vast population of people out there that never rises into their consciousness, what's in their consciousness is simply that they're underwater, and they're confused, and they're unhappy, right? And, and so we want to bring, these are people that have malaria, that have no idea that you can get a shot that can cure malaria, okay. So what we're trying to do is reach out to organizations and have them, essentially give that kind of an inoculation, if you will, mental inoculation to their workforce. So there are a number of really wonderful thought leaders and gurus, if you will, people who have been essentially massively influential, you know, in the media, and sort of how, you know, are part of the history of modern mindfulness, you know, people like Sharon Salzberg, who literally was an inflection point on her own, right when she came back from Burma, and began to teach mindfulness in a very sort of a Western dialect, if you will. People like Ron Siegel, who is a Harvard professor who, you know, is, again, one of the early experts in the science of mindfulness and bringing it, you know, sort of into the mainstream. Rhonda Magee, who was the chairman, I believe she may be still be the chairman at ‘Search Inside Yourself’, which is a wonderful organization that came out of Google, who is, you know, extremely articulate on the issues of mindfulness and inclusion, and-


Brett: Diversity, inner work of racial justice, I think is her book. It's amazing. Yeah, her new book.


Michael: Yeah, I mean, you know, these are really, really great people who have very strong perspectives on the value of mindfulness. So the vision behind this podcast is, let's bring these people in, right? and interview them about how they feel about this idea of organizational mindfulness, to get their experience in organizations because all of these people have great early adopter kind of experience in working with the really early progressive companies around mindfulness. So these are, you know, these are true thought leaders. And, again, we have the monthly webcasts around you know, that introduces the people that have actually built mindfulness programs inside companies, and the podcast is a must. Much more conversational, if you will interview with the thought leaders, you know, because behind that, yeah.

Brett: Totally. And here we are, doing an interview with a thought leader behind it. And I’m just so happy to talk to you about this, and hear your framing this gigantic issue and how visionary it is and how powerful it is to hear you speak about it. And I just want to say, thanks, on behalf of the mindful community for launching the podcast. And it’s gonna be great, we already have episodes queued up and ready to roll. And it’s gonna be a ton of fun. All the people that you mentioned, we have episodes with. So Michael, where can people find out about the Institute for Organizational Mindfulness? 


Brett: Well, our website is You can look us up at LinkedIn, we have a pretty robust presence over there with a newsfeed and a LinkedIn group. We’ll love to have you join our LinkedIn discussion group. And we’re posting a lot of content on LinkedIn. We’d love to have anyone in the audience considering becoming a community member. Community membership is free and it unlocks a lot of the resources that we have. So you can attend webcasts, you can access a pretty good slice of our own original research. It opens up access to a whole library of resources. When you google ‘Mindfulness’ there’s, I don’t know, three hundred million results. Okay? So good luck, getting out there and figuring out mindfulness.


So what we’ve done as a public service and we’re continuing to do this, is we’ve curated that massive amount of information and really tried to pull out the most real, logical, credible, resources that supports mindfulness through the scientific lense. And that actually looks at mindfulness in a way that might be helpful for personal development. Helpful beyond just stress relief, helpful in developing your capability to focus, your capability of controlling your emotions, your capability of working and dealing with other people in a much more effective manner. So these are performance aspects, or performance outcomes, that are critical in business, that are critical for companies, that are critical in your career. So you can actually access this information in a way that connects those dots. We’ve curated that information to point you in that direction. 


Brett: Amazing. And I encourage our listeners to go look at the Institute for Organizational Mindfulness, And there is a ton of stuff out there and it’s really helpful and high-quality like you said. So thank you and this has been a ton of fun Mike and I really appreciate you taking the time to introduce listeners to the podcast, into IOM, into your big vision and the power of it. So thank you so much. 

Michael: Thank you Brett, really appreciate it. 


Brett: We hope you’ve enjoyed this edition of the organizational mindfulness podcast. And if you did, leave us a review on Spotify, Itunes or wherever you’re enjoying your podcast. While you’re there make sure to click Subscribe because you’re not going to want to miss our next interview with another amazing guest. I’m your host Brett Hill for the Institute for Organizational Mindfulness. Till next time, stay present.  

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