So it's a journey of maturation. It's not just spending time on the planet. There is an actual process of development and maturing. Yes. That makes you a human being. Yes. And which also explains why for millennia there have been all kinds of different method. And practices that support people to go through that process of ion something that in western culture is often ignored in terms of the personal and interpersonal development.

You have to pick it up on the go. So, so you say for example, uh, that, you know, everybody needs a contemplative practice and there are many different ones, but maybe you can say again more Sure. What do you mean by contemplative practice? What is this contemplative practice actually doing for leaders in the world that do work in, in western traditions?

You'd probably call it something like a contemplative practice. In Eastern, you taught more meditative practice, but you have the same problem either way. Uh, what do you mean? How do you, how do you even define meditation or contemplation or reflection, which is a word we often use a little more often, is a little bit, uh, less confusing to people, but even reflection is not.

I mean, in terms of practice, as you say, because what all is said and done, this is not a philosophy or a bunch of intellectualizing. These are either, either really useful practices or, you know, they're not gonna go anywhere. I mean, they, our work is always in the context of real organizations, businesses, schools, uh, networks of organizations trying to work together, uh, on very complex change, uh, aspir.

Um, so you have to really be able to integrate into this, into this, into the day to day in the context in which people are operating. And so you always find at least three levels. And, and sometimes she might even say there could be a fourth of of practices. Uh, the first are personal. And I do think in some sense in this is all about the journey of becoming human.

There needs to be a personal grounding. You know, what do I do? Um, and there, I think today, More so than any other time in human history, we have an extraordinary variety of, of things to kind of choose from because, you know, for most of human history, people grew up locally, they grew up in the context of their own history, their own cultural history, and they had access to whatever was present in their culture.

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